Curse

Count to Potato · Jan 01, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

I remember in the not far off past when HoH was an eight person team, there was something called a Ranger Spike?

Ensign · Jan 01, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Bows are the lowest damage physical weapon in the game. A Recurve Bow actually isn't all that much better than a wand in terms of the damage it kicks out autoattacking.

Ranger skills are similarly gimped, the reason being that they're balanced around Expertise. Power Shot is a 5 energy skill that really costs 10 because they figure you're going to put a ton into Expertise to make it cost 5. Compared to taking a /Warrior secondary and a skill that actually costs (and is worth) 5, with Expertise making it 3, it just doesn't make any sense. Expertise needs to make good skills better, not bad skills mediocre. Also very few bow attacks do anything. Distracting Shot is great (and cheap, amazingly), Debilitating and Savage Shot are ok. Crippling Shot is still decent but expensive as hell. That's some decent utility, but what do you use to kill people?

Also Ranger bow users get reamed by Expertise. You need to pump Expertise and your Marksmanship pretty high just to function at all, which leaves very little room for your other Ranger attributes let alone your secondary. Contrast that with virtually every other profession, most of which only pump one attribute very highly and have a lot of flexibility - the rest of which don't even pump that one attribute very high.

So what you're left with is a character that doesn't deal heavy damage, but is forced into a utility role by his weapon and skills. However his attribute points and energy further restrict him from taking many other attributes and skills, really limiting him to Expertise and Marksmanship. Unfortunately there isn't much there, just DShot and some decent but not gamebreaking skills, and you're left with a character that makes you wish you had brought a Mesmer - a character with stronger utility, more flexibility, a stronger spike, and even more damage overall.

Peace,
-CxE

Khift · Jan 01, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Bows definitely, no doubt about it, need buffed. Hell, rangers in general need to be completely reworked. Bows are the weakest (physical) weapon in the game and have the most atrocious skill set to compliment them. Let me explain:

During the development cycle the dev team decided they didn't like how rangers were turning out. They were too damage oriented. The dev team changed how rangers worked, taking away their ability to deal large amounts of physical damage and focusing instead on their ability to disrupt combat and apply conditions, and so rangers were at the release of GW:P and for the duration of the GW:P season they were a force to be reckoned with. Their skills were powerful, effective, flexible and robust.

The problem, however, is three-fold: Firstly, when the dev team switched gears on rangers they had to nerf a huge portion of ranger skills. Of course, they buffed others as well to balance it out, but in the end the original ranger skill pool was still feeling the effects of this change which resulted in only a handful of powerful skills followed by a huge assortment of trash that either is no longer powerful or could no longer mesh with the ranger concept. The PvP'ers among us can recognize this -- why else did rangers all go R/Me and fill skill slots with Inspired Hex and Drain Enchantment? Because there was nothing better to fit in those slots, and so you might as well fit in a little more enchantment or hex removal.

Secondly, the amount of powerful skills that mesh with bow rangers added by Factions and Nightfall is almost zero. You can list them on one hand. Natural Stride, Barbed Arrows, Screaming Shot and Burning Arrow. That's it.

Thirdly, the skills that the existing powerful skills from GW:P were effective against have slowly shifted out of the metagame. (Crippling Shot, Apply Poison, Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Debilitating Shot are the skills I am referring to here.) Slow casting time spells have all but disappeared in favor of spells with 1s and faster casts, making interrupts almost worthless and condition removal has become more and more effective and making the condition spreading aspect weaker and weaker. And debil has been nerfed.

Bow rangers have started out with a shallow skill pool, haven't had it improved hardly at all, and now the metagame has moved on and left them behind. They're all but extinct nowadays, and the game is worse off without them. Something needs to be done about it.

P.S.:
To anyone who thinks that thumpers exist because of expertise, you're wrong. The power of the thumper lies in the pet. Expertise is just icing on the cake. Those two skill slots you spend on your pet, when combined with RaO, add a whopping 16 DPS to your character at no cost in-game beyond those two skill slots. In terms of raw hammer damage a thumper can never match a hammer warrior, but when you add in that 16 DPS from the pet and the ridiculously powerful RaO skill you end up with something that a hammer warrior, while doing much more damage per hit, just can't match up with. The fact that expertise allows you to spam your skills more frequently is just a fringe benefit when compared to the pet.

ShadowsRequiem · Jan 01, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicks boy

WTH is up with Rangers using Hammers and staffs? And worst of all i saw a R/E ranger using shield and a sword..... >< Rangers uses bows to kill motherEekers. I understand Touch rangers (Becuz they Pwnz) but an R/E using swords???? WTH???? Anet could just another bow.. called Crossbow? IDK, i dont understand. Rangers do a lot of dmg with bows at 16 markmanship. Esp with Burning arrow average dmg on monks and eles/casters are 150-75 dmg. Is 15-28 Not good enough? Lol.

Lol @ touch rangers, they dont "pwn" they suck... ignorant people die from touch tangers because their to damn stupid to learn how to kite or use a snare. Its such a crappy build... people should learn how to play a build.

Rangers with bows rock, CG, CS some of the coolest builds :P I mean who doesnt like to go into ab with a Crip shot ranger and pwn face!!!!
There are plenty of good dmg builds, one I had the most fun with was a quick shot build read,fav,quick = 6x faster if you have qz and serpents wow your gonna have some crazy fun lol.

steelwill · Jan 01, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowsRequiem

I mean who doesnt like to go into ab with a Crip shot ranger and pwn face!!!!

Why even bother with cripshot anymore? The best ranger cripple is a freaking derv skill. Grenth's fingers + any cheap bow skill > cripshot. You don't have have to dump a crapload of points into expertise and as a bonus you even get a decent self heal with natural healing.

And no, the solution to this is not to nerf Grenth's fingers, but buff crip shot FFS.

Venus was her name · Jan 01, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

rangers always get buffed in updates..nerf them for once plz

phallanxian · Jan 02, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

i had an ele/w in my party using a sword and shield the other day which was a surprise

XvArchonvX · Jan 02, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venus was her name

rangers always get buffed in updates..nerf them for once plz

Just because a class recieved X number of buffs doesn't mean that they must recieve an equal part of nerfs to make them equal to other classes. Recieving a higher quantity of buffs doesn't mean that the class that recieved such is any closer to being overpowered.

@ OP: I agree, bow skills could really use a buff to bring them to a competitive level with other weapons.

/signed

Khift · Jan 02, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venus was her name

rangers always get buffed in updates..nerf them for once plz

Rangers have been hit by the nerf bat pretty hard lately. TF, pet DP nerfs, debil, blackout and crip shot, to name the most important skills they've had nerfed. Sure, they get alot of buffs as well, but it's always on unimportant and inconsequential skills. Who cares if you take a craptastic skill and make it deal 4 more damage? Not a ranger.

Orphan Anthem · Jan 02, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Bows are only as good as the person behind the bow. But thumpers are just a bashfest.

Most situations id rather a very skilled player be behind a bow then a thumper

Jan 02, 2007, 05:17 AM // 05:17

is this a pvp disussion?

cause so far thats all the replies i see. is how rangers are in pvp.

shouldnt this be moved to Gladiators?

dantheman5415 · Jan 02, 2007, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chop it Off

is this a pvp disussion?

cause so far thats all the replies i see. is how rangers are in pvp.

shouldnt this be moved to Gladiators?

Would you like a screenshot of me completing THK with my ranger equipped with no armor/skills/weapons with henchies?

VGJustice · Jan 02, 2007, 05:52 AM // 05:52

I'd say something about my Sword Ranger, but I already know how that's going to go over.

After having played a Mesmer, I kinda have to agree with Ensign. Only real difference between a Mesmer Int and a Ranger Int is that a Ranger doesn't care what kind of skill it is. Which, to an experienced player, isn't a concideration.

I am curious what the game would be like if Rangers dealt more damage with their bows. But, curiosity alone is a poor reason to change a working system.

Therlun · Jan 02, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

I'm surprised that the general opinion is "bows do not enough damage".
They are the physical weapon with the lowest damage, but they are ranged.
That alone is a huge advantage.
IMO the damage is fine.

Rangers are one of the most versatile classes (IMO THE most versatile).
Bow attacks simply lack that versatility though.
A few good and very good skills are mixed with many plain "you hit for +17 damage" ones (many with very conditional or odd side effects).

There are few Marksmanship skills that really contribute to a(ny) build idea.
You need to invest heavily in two lines to gain access to a crapload of "+17 damage" stuff.
Just not worth it since Expertise opens so many other doors...

I dont think a general buff is needed.
More uses for your arrows are.

Jan 02, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantheman5415

Would you like a screenshot of me completing THK with my ranger equipped with no armor/skills/weapons with henchies?

and how would that relate to this thread?

cataphract · Jan 02, 2007, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyphen

Ok, a a build makes use of expertise to bring down the energy costs of skills....and that somehow means bows are underpowered? Name me a bow knockdown skill. Thar we go! There's a reason why Thumpers exist.

True.

What bows need are some KD and stance-breaker skills. Elite skills possibly. Naturally, you couldn't KD someone by using a shortbow, but long and horn bows do fire projectiles with enough kinetic energy to knock a person down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelwill

Should sheer damage not be an option with bows as well? Just for thought, rangers are the only melee/ranged class that can't apply a deep wound with their class weapon.

Ooooh, yes - a deep wound bow skill WOULD come in handy. RAWR!

arcanemacabre · Jan 02, 2007, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

True.

What bows need are some KD and stance-breaker skills. Elite skills possibly. Naturally, you couldn't KD someone by using a shortbow, but long and horn bows do fire projectiles with enough kinetic energy to knock a person down.

Ahh yes, very great idea. I could see a bow attack that could knockdown moving foes, kinda like a "Pin Down" situation where you lodge an arrow in their calf while they're running: they'd trip and fall.

I hate to bring up LotR, but what about a skill representing the move Legolas used in the first one - He jabs his arrow into an orc standing in front of him, then proceeds to use the arrow on a distant target. So perhaps a "Quick Shot" type attack (separate from normal attacks, thus speeding up DPS), except a touch skill. Maybe it causes bleeding or something.

Also, another idea could be some kind of AoE webbing-like arrow, kinda like the Corsair's net skill. You fire it and target as well as all adjacent to target get hexed with Web Arrow, and move 33% slower for some-odd seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

Ooooh, yes - a deep wound bow skill WOULD come in handy. RAWR!

This is definately hawt. Make it Broadhead Arrow-like, where it moves slower and has high arc - ya know, cause it's gotta be a giant serrated blade-head.

GourangaPizza · Jan 02, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Bows are buggy sometimes, hence unreliable. When I say unreliable, I mean I get this "Obstructed" message sometimes when a I shoot at a target from a flat ground. And sometimes I can shoot through the walls or floors and hit my target.

Cold · Jan 02, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Couple of days ago I was in ToA trying to get to forgemaster. I gathered a team, me as war, 3 fire ele, necro SS, 2mo and a ranger. All I asked from the ranger was to bring interrupts but he used Barrage instead. So SS on me all the time (monks didn't remove hexes and conditions) and all the other nasties from elementalists (I got only distracting blow, couldn't do much with it). I can understand that some ppl do not find it appealing to play supporting roles but then go ahead and play SF ele or SS necro at least they do real damage. In PvE the best ranger build IMHO is based on Broad Head Arrow and 2 other interrupts. Barrage is good only for B/P teams.

Saphatorael · Jan 02, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

To be honest... I think Anet's been messing around with the stats, and spears deal more damage practically, than bows. They change the real damage output, not the 15-28 damage points. If people would see that, it'd be /quit GW for alot of people.

I've been messing in RA, and Spears just seem to deal alot more damage, without using skills, even. :s (And the fact that Spears CAN bring Deep Wounds... major plus over bows.)